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Adrian Savage

Hmmm. This is a familiar argument, but it hinges on the belief that there is something separate from our physical bodies that is also "us." A recent article in The New Yorker showed there's no evidence to support such a belief, though it's extremely common.

Of course nothing is provable in any absolute sense, but some things are plenty real enough for all practical purposes. Try not believing in the force of gravity! The essential difference between a belief (including any religious belief) and a "fact" is this: facts are supported by directly observable evidence that can be repeated at will. Beliefs are ideas people espouse without such evidence. Some, in time, are either confirmed (and become "facts") or disproved (and become "myths"). Most stay as they are: things people accept without evidence because they want to.

Does God exist? Who knows? Those who say He (or She) does cannot produce evidence on demand to prove it; those who say God is a myth cannot produce conclusive evidence to refute belief. In the end, it's a pointless question, as is whether or not human beings have souls.


Reminds me of this:


"How to Get Smarter, One Breath at a Time -
Scientists find that meditation not only reduces stress but also reshapes the brain"

Archana Bahuguna

"Who or what is that which is at the basis of your knolwedge but is separate from those objects?"

Agree. I had similar thoughts after being exposed to Vipassana meditation. When we sit for Vipassana and gradually take our attention to various parts of our body, we begin to feel subtle vibrations/sensations in our body all over due to increased awareness - those which we never feel during our normal day because of the low levels of consciousness we tend to have about ourselves. After I started feeling those sensations, the next question that came to my mind was - Who are you? Is it that you can only feel sensations on your part of the body because you are "separate" from "others"? or is it because your level of consciousness is so low that you cannot feel the "others" and in reality "they" and "you" are much the same. And lots of such questions ...

Philip Stanley

"...hinges on the belief that there is something separate from our physical bodies that is also "us." "

Adrian, try: "it" is also our physical bodies!


Interesting. It could be that we are actually being manipulated by many other scientists, informing us, using us for experiments. However, that could also be something of an overavtice imagination, lol. Just wondering, what motivates you to live?


You're begging the question.

"Assuming the universe does exist, before we can know who its Creator is (or if He/She/It exists), there is one question that must be answered first."

You belive in God because you belive in God.

It's irrational for you to claim anything else, no matter how much dust you can raise.


It's tempting for me to copy and post Robert Fritz's latest e-newsletter (he authored 1989's The Path of Least Resistence; Learning to Become the Dominant Creative Force in Your Own Life). But I imagined the correspondence back and forth with robertfritz.com people and, being studiously lazy, decided against it.

I'll just invite readers to check out www.robertfritz.com and read his latest e newsletter (you may have to susbscribe if it's not readily posted - it's free and worth it). It is quite pertinent to Fred's thread here and includes a fascinating JFK quote which I can insert:

"The artist, faithful to his personal vision of reality, becomes the last champion of the individual mind and sensibility against an intrusive society and an offensive state."


The rest of his post causes me to wonder if Fritz is a Fred fan. In a good way.

This way, I won't step on anyone's toes with cut and copy.

Andre in LA

Fred, man... God is a very personal matter. I doubt it was meditation practitioners who invented the notion of God. I agree that practicing meditation gives me a glimpse of an experience of "It" - Self/Consciousness/Bliss. But I know that this experience is a part of the human condition, not despite of it. I believe that non-practicing human beings also get a chance to experiencing their higher Self, experiencing higher love, experiencing "It."

The practice is just a proven method for the more committed of us. But the "knowledge" is not reserved for "the chosen" - it is built in us - live, human, beings.

In my world God is more like gravity, or the very fabric of the universe, or, maybe, the consciousness we channel fro and through our physycal bodies. Still, others get to choose their experience. We can say that "I am my mind" - type people refuse to look/listen for "It." - thus choosing a certain kind of existence, a certain kind of life.

The mind's intellectual constructions and logical take on this phenomena are useless, a waste of time, I would even say, poisonous to living the phenomena... I get to either choose to attempt an experience or choose to not attempt it - talking / thinking about it is not and never will be the experience.

You know, like, practice - pain, anger, grief, fear, joy or love. In this moment.

Cheers -- Andre

Nolan Eakins

> For the record, there is no factual basis that
> anything exists. The world that you are
> experiencing is all happening inside your brain.

You just proved yourself wrong right there. You are invoking something on the outside, the brain, to prove that the outside does not exist.

I suggest you pick up Leonard Peikoff's book on Objectivism to correct your argument. Chances are the rest of this article will fall into place just fine.

I also suggest Gerald Edelman's "A Universe of Consciousness". It should eliminate some of the points that appeared in the other comments.


There is a related question; Why is it always NOW? There is a theory that life is like a movie and you are seeing the present scene. But why is that scene what you see now and not what might have happened ages ago or in future some time? Can you clarify from your meditations?


When you've learned how to fool yourself, you're in a pretty dangerous place.


How do you know that you know yourself?
How do you know that one cannot know anything?


Fred, you're smart guy. This kind of pseudo-philosophical babble is below you.

Jack's Customized Fat Loss

we just have to stick with our belief and forget about those people who questioned that belief, it is not for their own good it's for my own

- Jack Leak

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